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The Worth of a Coach

One of the most difficult things to do in sports is to figure out just how valuable a coach is.  The Brian Orser/Yu-na Kim situation reiterates that difficult question, particularly with the revisionist history going on.  Many are saying that Kim saved Orser's career by choosing to work with him (without acknowledging that, obviously, Kim saw something in Orser worth working with) and others think that Orser is taking all the credit for plucking Kim from obscurity, even though she was already on the skating radar when she went to work with Orser.  How much credit should a coach get? 

In team sports, it's a common thought that a coach gets a bit too much credit when a team does well and a bit too much blame when a team does poorly.  Individual sports have a different dynamic, though.  The skater is out there on his or her own, the game plan depends entirely on them, and they will often take all the blame when anything goes wrong.  If a skater switches from coach to coach, we tend to assume the skater is fickle rather than blame the coach (or at least, I am guilty of that).

Still, you have to think there is a reason that Frank Carroll, Nicolai Morozov, and others so consistently produce champions. But it must also be acknowledged that not every skater they work with goes on to the ultimate successes in the sport. You have to concede that both Yu-na Kim and Adam Rippon made great strides after working with Orser.  But there is no way to know how they would have done had they chosen other coaches as they matured (although Rippon was working with Morozov prior to Orser and not doing as well).  It is also obvious how influential Tatiana Tarasova has been on Mao Asada's skating; not necessarily for the better.  And this isn't even getting into the strictly choreography side of things.

I guess with each skater/coach relationship, it's a different situation.  It's almost impossible to say what might have happened had Kim not worked with Orser.  As a Yankee fan, I don't give all the credit to former coach Joe Torre for the team's dynasty in the late 90's...but I do feel awfully appreciative of the guy whenever I see him on television.  And even though things ended terribly between him and the Yankees, I don't feel a need to bash his accomplishments or contribution. 

It's obvious how important a coach is to a figure skater - but how do we measure just how important?  And how important was Orser to Kim?  Or Frank Carroll to Michelle Kwan, John Nicks to Sasha Cohen, etc.?  Please comment if you have any thoughts.

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The perfect match

    As in every relationship, it depends on both parties involved. Part of it depends on the skills of the coach but another part of it depends on the talent of the skater. If a skater doesn’t have the talent, then he or she can’t make it even under the best coaches. In addition, there are outside factors involved that might affect the relationship such as distance, communication and lifestyle issues. So we often see relationships between talented skaters and great coaches not working so well. Therefore, the perfect situation is when these conditions can be controlled and thus the relationship is allowed to blossom.

by sana on Aug 31, 2010 8:54 AM EDT reply actions  

David Wilson should take much more credit than Orser

Another thing that bothers me about Orser in his recent interviews is that he tends to take all the credits as a coach for Yuna’s improvement. I think, and Yuna has repeatedly acknowledged before the split, that David Wilson is the one who influenced Yuna the most, tapping into her artistic side, and making skating a fun experience to her.

by Shreve on Aug 31, 2010 3:12 PM EDT reply actions  

David Wilson...

…is a choreographer and as such deserves a ton of credit for Yu-na’s success with just the right programs. But he isn’t a coach and couldn’t have served in that technical role. How do we know this? Because Wilson was the one who got Yu-na, then sixteen years old, together with Orser when she came to Canada to work with Wilson on choreography but needed a lot of help with jumps. According to all accounts written before the recent spitting contest, Yu-na took to Orser almost immediately and both she and her mother had to press Orser, who was reluctant to go full time into coaching, to take on the young skater. But he did and, as I’ve noted elsewhere, the results were unprecedented and no one either in the Kim camp or outside it questioned the combination. Those doing so now are acting out of sheer spite.

by SimonBo on Aug 31, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you don't know Jack, stop talking.

Orser once almost got fired before 2009 World and it was well documented in the Korean media at that time. If you don’t know the history about the Kim camp at all, please stop talking about the Yuna-Orser relationship and save yourself from embarrassment. That’s just quite enough.

by Shreve on Sep 1, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really?

Orser was “almost fired” before the 2009 World Championships? First I’ve heard of it. And if it was so “well documented” how come there was no mention of it at the time of the Championships? That would have been quite the story. NBC made no mention of it and neither did any of the written media when Yu-na took the title. Ditto for when she went to the Olympics. Something tells me that that story is “well documented” in your head. In any event, it was a good thing they stuck together, as I believe Yu-na won that championship with a then world record score, did she not? Certainly wasn’t the time to be changing coaches.

As I’ve said before, you can disagree all you want to about Orser’s firing, but coming out now and saying that he wasn’t even a good coach all that time is just pure spite.

by SimonBo on Sep 1, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Always A Murky Area.

Before we get to coaching as such, I think it really needs to be pointed out just how way off base some of Brian Orser’s detractors are these days. One can disagree with how he has handled being fired but some now go so far as to claim that he wasn’t even a good coach. Of course, absolutely none of these people were saying that these last four years as Yu-na was climbing to dominance, so their remarks on that subject now can be dismissed without further ado. It’s funny because these detractors are reacting with so much anger that you’d think Orser had done something to them and not said some fairly innocuous comments about Yu-na and her mother, but they’ve come to identify with the skater to such an extent that they take personally anything said about her, which is pretty sad.

Coaching is a hard thing to sum up very easily. It’s very different for team and individual sports and it’s always difficult to precisely assess who is responsible for what measure of success and failure. (It’s interesting that you mentioned Torre and the Yankees. It’s pretty much agreed that out of all the team sports, baseball managers have the least amount of impact on wins and losses. Before joining the Yanks, Torre had managed at several stops around the major leagues with mostly mediocre results. After one greatly successful Yankee season, Torre was once asked what his role was and he rather famously replied that he mostly just stayed out of the way.) But in other sports it is different. Winning seems to just follow some coaches around, like with Nick Saban at Alabama. Then the question becomes is whether he’s a great coach or a great recruiter. Figure skating is like tennis and boxing, sports where you’re coaching not a team but an individual. It seems to me that that becomes more of a matter of psychology and personality to a greater extent than team sports. Muhammad Ali’s trainer, Angelo Dundee, was famous not only for understanding technique but for keeping his boxers happy and focused. The element of time comes into it as well. A coach and athlete or team that work together for awhile sometimes lose that magic over a longer haul. There are few hard and set rules for successin athletic coaching.

As for Yu-na and Orser, I don’t know who is responsible for what part of her success but all I know is that it worked spectacularly for four years and during that time no one complained. My feeling is that it was a case of a brilliant athlete coming into her own under just the right guidance. As I said earlier, their break-up may have been a mess, but their work together was second to none.

by SimonBo on Aug 31, 2010 6:06 PM EDT reply actions  

On the skating radar ?

 “she was already on the skating radar when she went to work with Orser”"

I wouldn’t call a gold medalist of the Junior Worlds “on the radar”… She was technical superb. She would do a triple-triple jump on her Junior Gala for christ’s sake !! Even Seniors don’t do that at Galas (Yuna doesn’t do that anymore either).

I think most of the people give credit to Yuna (watch the YouTube from British Euro, German, and Russian NTV). Though a brilliant skater, Orser was pretty much a “nobody” in 2006 in the coaching world. I think this says a lot about the foresight of Yuna’s mom more than Orser’s capability. As a coach, Orser was “adequate”, and he was a great choice because the Olympics were done in Canada. I think only Canadians give Orser more credit than he deserves.

To me, the debating point would be how much credit does Orser get among ALL THE TEACHERS Yuna had. I say 25%, certainly debatable here… Her first teacher, Jong-hyeon Ryu, discovered her when she was 7 yrs old. Wihtout his insistence, Yuna’s mom would probably not start this whole thing. Mr. Kim Se-yol guided Yuna to Junior World GOLD. But Kim was humble enough to know it was all Yuna, not his brilliance…Then, last but not least, Yuna’s mom can claim a big share of credit.

by badukmaster on Aug 31, 2010 8:59 PM EDT reply actions  

A Perfect Example Of What...

…I’ve previously written about reqarding the hindsight of much of this debate. In the last couple of years did you write or even think that Brian Orser was merely “adequate”? No one in skating or in the media breathed a word along those lines. On the contrary, no one could say enough about what Orser had done for the skater. And no, it wasn’t just “Canadians”. You did perhaps watch the World Championships of 2009 and the recent Olympics where Americans working for an American network postiviely gushed about Orser’s handling of Kim. You’ve perhaps read media accounts from Korea that did the same. This is just another example of Yu-na’s fans retroactively trashing Orser because of their hurt feelings over the recent firing squabble.

“I think this says a lot about the foresight of Yuna’s mom more than Orser’s capability. As a coach, Orser was "adequate", and he was a great choice because the Olympics were done in Canada.”

That’s a bit of reasoning that would make even shreve blush. How is it we’re supposed to praise Mama Kim’s “foresight” for picking someone who was merely “adequate”? That’s ludicrous just at face value but becomes even more so when one knows the story. Mama Kim didn’t show any great foresight in choosing Orser, who was “nobody” in coaching in 2006 for the simple reason that he wasn’t a coach. It was David Wilson who introduced Brian Orser to Yu-na and Mom put on the full court press not because of any “foresight” or because of the geographical location of the Olympics but because Orser and Yu-na hit it off so well. It really was that simple.

“Her first teacher, Jong-hyeon Ryu, discovered her when she was 7 yrs old. Wihtout his insistence, Yuna’s mom would probably not start this whole thing. Mr. Kim Se-yol guided Yuna to Junior World GOLD. But Kim was humble enough to know it was all Yuna, not his brilliance…Then, last but not least, Yuna’s mom can claim a big share of credit.”

Did Ryu"discover" Yu-na or did she, like a lot of seven year olds, just happen to walk into his rink and start skating? Nevermind. If success was “all” Yu-na then anyone could have coached her. Or better still, she wouldn’t have needed a coach at all. And I think it’s swell that Kim Se-yol didn’t claim her success was due to his “brilliance”. Of course, none of her other coaches, particularly Mr Orser, have ever made that claim either.

Ladies and gentlemen, we’re all fans of Kim Yu-na’s but lets just lay off the Kool-Aid for awhile. Brian Orser never did anything to you and his time with Yu-na was overwhelmingly positive and successful. Saying otherwise just because of their split up is just childish.

by SimonBo on Sep 1, 2010 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

a lot of junior champs do nothing in seniors

There is a reason that Kim acknowledged she needed Orser; she didn’t just descend from heaven and pluck out this skating “nobody” and deign to allow him to coach her. I find it confusing that people are trying to absolutely discount any contribution he had. And you can’t try to sell me on the idea that he was a good choice merely because the Olympics were to be in Canada. There were tons of American West coast coaches Kim could have worked with who were a short trip away from Canada. So there must have been something she saw in him.

--
Laura
RequiredElements.com

by LauraS on Sep 1, 2010 7:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

I mean, a short trip away from Vancouver

and to be honest, if proximity to the Olympics were a main goal in choosing a coach, I’m sure she could found someone a bit closer to Vancouver.

--
Laura
RequiredElements.com

by LauraS on Sep 1, 2010 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Time will tell.

While I think Orser made contributions to Kim’s success, he has not fully proved his talent as a star coach yet. How Gao and Adam will do this season is crucial for him to show the skating world that he is indeed worth his name and fame as a elite coach.

by Shreve on Sep 1, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Like Atletes, Coaches Are Always Proving Themselves.

No matter what a coach has done in the past there is always the “what have you done for us lately crowd” ready to jump down his throat. Orser’s career will continue along the way anyone else’s does. But no matter what happens in the future there is no disputing that he was the right coach for the right skater at the right time. Certainly, no will ever be able to say “Gee, just think what Yu-na could have done with a different coach!” There really isn’t any room for improvement in their record together.

by SimonBo on Sep 1, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Discounting Orser ?

Perhaps I used some strong words, but I did say Orser was ‘adequate’. I don’t know if that is discounting him. I think it is what it is. On the Olympics level, ‘adequate’ is saying a lot. There are probably handful of people in the world who can coach at that level, perhaps 10 or so. That is all 20/20 hindsight that Orser was a good choice. But in 2006, Yuna’s mom did have a foresight and Orser was a nobody in the coaching world at that time. After it was announced Orser was Yuna’s coach, Japanese and Korean major media both called it a ‘bad move’. You can look up what they said, it is all public info.

Your main article was about how much contribution a coach has. A coach does not take a silver or bronze medalist and turn her into a gold, but rather make sure the gold medalist can stay her course. It is not an easy job for sure, but there are other coaches who could have done that for Yuna. When the dust settles, it will be seen Orser’s reputation more damaged than Yuna’s. The reason is, the coach has to know his place. No player will want to mess with a guy who thinks he was the Queen maker. Joe Torre was ‘adequate’ for the Yanks and Jackson was ‘adequate’ for the Michael Jordon led Bulls. Am I discounting Torre and Jackson ??

Bo wrote " In the last couple of years did you write or even think that Brian Orser was merely "adequate"? " Of course, just watch all the YouTubes by Germans, Russian NTV etc. They said it back in 2007 realtime what Orser’s worth. They were quite blatant in their expressions.

by badukmaster on Sep 1, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Adequate Words?

You did not use “strong” words so much as the wrong words. You called Orser “adequate” but then said only “perhaps 10 or so” coaches work at that level. I’m sorry, but that’s not what “adequate” means. If there really are so few coaches who qualify for that term then the word you’re looking for would be “elite” or something similar.

“Joe Torre was ‘adequate’ for the Yanks and Jackson was ‘adequate’ for the Michael Jordon led Bulls. Am I discounting Torre and Jackson ??”

Well, if that’s the case, let’s just call Michael Jordan an “adequate” basketball player and leave it at that.

" After it was announced Orser was Yuna’s coach, Japanese and Korean major media both called it a ‘bad move’. You can look up what they said, it is all public info."

I have no doubt that some observers thought Orser’s hiring was a mistake. And why was that? Most likely because at that point Orser had done little or no coaching. Clearly, they were thinking that a mentor with more experience was called for. When Mama Kim hired him it wasn’t because she was exhibiting any “foresight”. She hired him because she saw what a good effect Orser was having on Yu-na and her skating. That isn’t “foresight” but a more than good enough reason to hire a coach for your daughter. And Orser’s effect on Yu-na remained positive for four years through unprecedented success. Their break up does not change that.

by SimonBo on Sep 1, 2010 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yuna/Orser is like MJ/Phil Jackson and Yankees/Torre

Michael Jordan and Phil Jackson are in a different league. There is only one MJ, but there are probably 20 Phil Jacksons in NBA history. I will take back the word “adequate” to describe Jackson, but my point is that Yuna/Orser was like MJ/Jackson.

I think Laura’s point is that the role of a figure skating coach is more important than team sports like NBA or MLB. I don’t agree with that because when you have a 20 member roster team, you have a lot of unique and different issues, strategies, to deal with. But even in MLB and NBA, the worth of a coach is debatable. In college level, it is all about recruiting, but in MLB the coach has little say in that. Joe Girardi did as good job (adequate) job as Torre did, wining the World Series. I think that takes out some ‘aura’ of Joe Torre.

Yuna can find another Joe Girardi, but can Orser find another NY Yankees ?? His LAdodgers seem not up to par…

by badukmaster on Sep 6, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

TARDY COMMENT

I’m a bit late to comment on this situation because I’ve been away from the internet. Yes, that’s possible. To sum up my feelings about the Kim/Orser split. I think that Yuna needs more than a new coach, she needs a new personal manager. She has relied on her mother and she has succeeded because of her mother’s diligence, but I suspect that the time has come when her mother may not always be capable of making the right decisions on her daughter’s behalf. I think that Yuna has benefited a great deal from the Orser/Wilson method because these two gay men have had no desire to mold her into their own idea of a woman. They have trained her well and allowed her to express herself and she has blossomed as a result. Her mother, on the other hand, has always had definite ideas of who and what she wants her daughter to be, like any mother does, it’s natural. Her mother deserves nothing but praise for her efforts on Yuna’s behalf. A time comes though when the daughter needs to take control of her own life although It may be a bit much to ask while she still competes and because the apron strings are supposed to be cut by the parent not the other way around. I believe Yuna will truly become the Queen when she removes her Mom, gently, from the throne seat. I hope that’s not too late to stir a comment or two.

by In2it on Sep 4, 2010 3:31 PM EDT reply actions  

One Has To Know One's Limitations.

My feeling is that Yu-na’s mother did an excellent job as, well…Yu-na’s mother. I think it was a real mistake for her to step out of that role and take over the management of her career by starting a sports agency. Just because you’ve raised a champion skater doesn’t mean you know how to manage and market a huge star. Mama Kim must have been convinced that they could save a ton of money if they did the management themselves. If this split with Orser is any indication, then Yu-na is in for some tough sledding business wise. There may have been excellent reasons for Yu-na to break with Orser but the handling of it was a disaster, and responsibility for that goes right back to Mama Kim since she is the one in charge of AT Sports. Kim Yu-na either needs to split with AT Sports (and that ain’t gonna happen) or AT Sports needs to start hiring some people who actually know how to conduct this kind of business.

by SimonBo on Sep 4, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

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